First open thread of the new year. A time for ‘best of’s of climate science last year and previews for the this year perhaps? We will have an assessment of the updates to annual indices and model/data comparisons later in the month.
Climate science from climate scientists...
Tony Weddle says
Ray,
Thanks for the correction, growth is an increase in the value of goods and services (adjusted for inflation). So I guess your vision is that the quality of goods and services improves, ad infinitum, so that the value of them increases. Of course, somehow everyone must earn enough to afford the increasingly valuable goods and services (because not selling them doesn’t generate an increase in total value and, consequently, in the economy). If that all happens, I’ve no argument with you other than the fact that even higher quality goods and services continue to consume resources. This can’t go on ad infinitum unless all resources are consumed only at their renewal rates (which they won’t be). Recycling can help reduce the rate of extraction of natural resources but can’t reduce it to zero.
Having said that, if half the world (or more) aspires to reach the living standards of the other half (or less), then increasing resource use is needed. That would only hasten the onset of scarcity (and the increase in emissions).
Services can only be a certain portion of an economy as people still need and want stuff. Even though the services sector has increased in developed markets, I’m not sure it has globally, as developing nations take up the slack of producing stuff.
The upshot is that it’s difficult to see how economic growth can continue much into the future, though, if enough societies can remain stable for log enough and all the infrastructure (including international trade) can be made completely emissions free, then your notion of growing through quality improvements could, hypothetically, keep it going for some time.
DIOGENES says
Kevin McKinney #599,
Not getting bogged down by ‘paralysis by analysis’ does not mean we eliminate the analysis; it means we use it judiciously. Here’s another way of explaining our present situation.
A few years back, a book was published called ‘Die Broke’. The author’s thesis was that the idea of working one’s life and being frugal, only for the purpose of leaving the assets acquired to one’s descendents, is foolish. Better to spend all the money while one is alive, and ‘die broke’. The author went on to state that the best of all worlds was to get a number of credddit cards, and die when all the cards have maxxed out.
Well, as I have shown numerous times, we are out of carbon budget! We don’t have 500 GT remaining, or whatever numbers people choose to advertise; we are not only out of carbon budget, but I suspect more complete models including carbon feedbacks will show that we have started to run up our carbon credddit card charges. As a civilization, we have made a collective decision to ‘die broke’ with our credddit cards maxxed out, but carbon credddit cards rather than monetary credddit cards. Unlike the monetary approach, where the time of our demise determines how much credddit we have run up on the cards, in the carbon approach, the amount of credddit we have run up will determine our demise!
The only option we have left if we want to avoid the Apocalypse is to cut carbon expenditures to the bone. We have run out of alternatives! Yet, what are we doing in practice? McKibben wrote an article last month for Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/obama-and-climate-change-the-real-story-20131217). He said, in part:
“If you want to understand how people will remember the Obama climate legacy, a few facts tell the tale: By the time Obama leaves office, the U.S. will pass Saudi Arabia as the planet’s biggest oil producer and Russia as the world’s biggest producer of oil and gas combined. In the same years, even as we’ve begun to burn less coal at home, our coal exports have climbed to record highs. We are, despite slight declines in our domestic emissions, a global-warming machine: At the moment when physics tell us we should be jamming on the carbon brakes, America is revving the engine”
“We’ve built lots of new solar panels and wind towers in the past five years (though way below the pace set by nations like Germany). In any event, building more renewable energy is not a useful task if you’re also digging more carbon energy – it’s like eating a pan of Weight Watchers brownies after you’ve already gobbled a quart of Ben and Jerry’s.”
If that’s not maxxing out your carbon credddit cards before your demise, I don’t know what is. And, there are absolutely no indications that America and other fossil fuel-rich nations will stop ‘revving the engine’ for the foreseeable future.
Hank Roberts says
Recommended: http://climatechangenationalforum.org/
To coin the phrase, it’s climate science from scientists.
Refreshing, as such things go. You can look the writers up and see their work.
Kevin McKinney says
#602–“Not getting bogged down by ‘paralysis by analysis’ does not mean we eliminate the analysis; it means we use it judiciously.”
Certainly. I wouldn’t claim otherwise at all. The only reason that I even raised this as a concern was that I took something or other in your initial comment about this issue to refer to a rather more extensive plan than I thought helpful. Apparently that was an error of interpretation on my part.
As to the rest of your screed, I assume you were ‘just saying,’ since your comments don’t seem responsive to anything that I said. If so, well sure, “dying broke” is a decent metaphor.
Kevin McKinney says
By the way, I’m having trouble these days with the comment box–the Captcha fails to appear most of the time, which of course makes commenting impossible.
That’s in Safari, my normal browser; Firefox is working normally (as you might guess from the fact that you are reading this comment.) The issue just cropped up a couple of days ago; anybody else experiencing this?
(Just how normally can be seen from the fact that Captcha presented two absolutely unreadable squiggles before coming up with “raEngli persecution.”)
Mal Adapted says
Prokaryotes:
Wouldn’t this mean that each of your comments would longer than the previous one 8^)?
prokaryotes says
Mal Adapted, no because everybody can think abstract and can build on the current state of preconception (based on the latest), thus you need to frame the current situation and address questions and implement a FAQ to enhance the process of swarm learning.
TomB says
Is there a correlation between the spike in North Pacific water temperatures and the blocking high off the west coast that is causing the jet stream to swing up north and into the Canadian arctic and then down into the Midwest. Would it be reasonable to opine that at least some of the severe weather can be attributed to ocean warming?
Hank Roberts says
“swarm learning” — to “improve our previous neuro-fuzzy learning system to deal with the local-limited observation situation“?
Yeah, that’ll help.
Hank Roberts says
Question for the scientists reading along, if any care to comment:
I read that “the 15-17 year trend is near zero, and no such interval has occurred since the 1970s”
But that’s the trend in air temperature, it’s what we have.
Can we compare using ocean temps to add to the air temperature data?
For the most recent 15-17 year period, we know the warming continued, going into the oceans.
What was happening in the 1970s?
prokaryotes says
Hank Roberts, maybe more related to intelligence, A Swarm-Based Learning Method Inspired by Social Insects
Though, you need to stay focused on the actual context here, the meaning of swarm learning is a very broad term. Call it internet learning if you prefer that. The internet is the perfect platform for information sharing and learning, which has been shown to accelerate evolution and drive major trends for society in all aspects.
Relevant to the context at hand
Eventually you need the media reporting the facts. And my impression is, that it’s happening.
Kevin McKinney says
#604/5/6–Hmm, apparently I’m also having trouble with inadvertent double posts. Sorry ’bout that.
FWIW, I prefer the second of the two duplicates (#605.)
SecularAnimist says
Diogenes wrote: “McKibben wrote an article last month for Rolling Stone …”
Yes, and McKibben quite correctly chastises the Obama administration for expanding US fossil fuel extraction, which is obviously the opposite of what is needed, and moreover is in blatant contradiction to Obama’s own rhetoric about global warming.
And McKibben also correctly points out that the Obama administration’s support for rapid deployment of wind and solar, while a distinct improvement over past policies, falls far short of what Germany and other countries have demonstrated is possible, and far short of what is needed. Moreover, the emission reductions represented by the growth of wind and solar are more than offset by the expansion of fossil fuel extraction that the administration has promoted and continues to promote.
What McKibben does NOT say is that expanding renewable energy generation is in itself unhelpful — he says that “building more renewable energy is not a useful task IF you’re also digging more carbon energy“.
What McKibben does NOT say is that the amount of fossil fuels that might be burned specifically to build and deploy wind and solar will, in itself, push us “over the edge”.
What McKibben does NOT say is that ending subsidies and supports for fossil fuel extraction, and implementing policies to greatly accelerate the phaseout of fossil fuels, will require “severe economic sacrifices”.
What McKibben’s analysis really shows is that (1) we have the necessary solutions in hand, and there are no significant technological or economic obstacles to rapidly deploying them on a scale that gives us a fighting chance at averting the worst outcomes of AGW, and that (2) the only real barrier is the entrenched wealth and political power of the fossil fuel industry.
Hank Roberts says
> The internet is the perfect platform for information sharing …
Yeah, right, the ultimate in information sharing.
Any advertising agency will tell you that throwing multiple copies of the same thing in everyone’s face everywhere they go reaches them best.
Alas, hypertext was such a good idea.
Too bad it never worked in practice.
prokaryotes says
Hank, the point is messaging and as everybody knows, repeating is key when you lack coverage and are confronted with misinformation. Focus.
Chuck Hughes says
I’m in the annoying process of repeating myself but please check this out: http://vimeo.com/67822370
The full text of the Redford TV ad reads as follows:
“Hello, I’m Robert Redford. Climate change is happening fast. We’ve got to stop making the problem worse, and that means reducing carbon pollution from its biggest source, coal-fired power plants. The good news is that President Obama has pledged to act. I just hope the President has the courage of his convictions. Please, urge the President to make dirty power plants clean up their carbon pollution. Thank you.”
Media outlets can download high-quality materials for the Redford “Courage to Act” campaign:
http://www.nrdc.org/redfordclimatevideo.
sidd says
Re: ocean heat content 1970-1980
Levitus (2012), fig 1
http://membrane.com/sidd/levitus-2012.png
GRL, v39, L10603, doi:10.1029/2012GL051106 2012
lotsa noise, pre ARGO
sidd
Dave Peters says
Something to watch for, given the sticky planetary wave and this Clipper parade persistence in the US, if it continues into February, is stress on the movement of propane. Metropolitan gas distributors meet greatly expanded winter heating loads with a combination of enhancements, one of which is to inject propane/air from liquid storage tanks. Late into an unusually cold winter, adjusting propane moves by rail, but for those watching the revolutionary liquid hydrocarbon extraction patterns here these last few years, a comparatively huge volume of petroleum and diluted bitumen has been moving by rail also. A tank car might well be worth its weight in bitcoins this week.
The general public has but a minimal comprehension of the gravity of a mass loss of service continuity for exposed cities.
MARodger says
HadCRUT4 December 2013 temperature is now posted. The annual figure was posted a couple of days back & I note the denialists have been celebrating the lack of official announcement as some sort of victory.
The full list of rankings for 2013 global temperature are:-
UAH ranks as 4th hottest.
RSS 10th hottest.
GISS 7th hottest.
NCDC 4th hottest.
HadCRUT4 8th hottest.
Peter Shepherd says
It would be interesting to know if this new discovery affects both ECS & Earth System climate sensitivity:
Rapid Soil Production and Weathering in the Western Alps, New Zealand
Isaac J. Larsen, Peter C. Almond, Andre Eger, John O. Stone, David R. Montgomery, and Brendon Malcolm
Science 1244908Published online 16 January 2014 [DOI:10.1126/science.1244908]
Seen via: http://www.climatenewsnetwork.net/2014/01/rainy-mountains-speed-co2-removal/
prokaryotes says
Peter Shepherd, if the weathering process of breaking down rock into soil is twice as fast as has been estimated in the past, the carbon cycle feedback needs to be updated. Though, it is not clear how this feedback is constructed. But the extra carbon ends up in the Ocean and waterways, so this suggest it may accelerate ocean acidification and various other things like infrastructure damage from acid rain.
It is interesting to note that this study even points out mountain uplift.
Related (see image of feedbacks and sensitivity) https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/01/on-sensitivity-part-i/
Tony Weddle says
prokaryotes,
“But the extra carbon ends up in the Ocean and waterways, so this suggest it may accelerate ocean acidification and various other things like infrastructure damage from acid rain.”
At least this is one thing that won’t happen. The estimates might have been wrong but the actual measurements of ocean acidification, and so on, will already include the real rate of weathering.
prokaryotes says
Tony Weddle, it is unclear how far this new signal is established in time and space. Maybe the accelerated weathering of rocks have yet to be accounted for to reflect the real magnitude of acceleration.
Relevant
Edward Greisch says
For the first time, a politician sent a survey that includes climate change.
From: Tom Udall
Subject: Survey: What issues are important to you in 2014?
http://www.tomudall.com/landing/e140126/
What issue is most important to you in 2014?
Income Inequality
Climate Change
Creating more jobs
Ending the effects of Citizens United
Reforming the filibuster
Why does that issue matter to you?
Albuquerque Mailing Address: PO BOX 25766 Albuquerque, NM 87125 | Email: info@tomu
prokaryotes says
Acidification of Pacific coast could disrupt entire marine food web
Dave Peters says
Has anyone heard of a geoengineering proposal to pump seawater onto Antarctica as a means of countering sea level rise?
prokaryotes says
A drone video about a rock fall in Termeno (Italy)
prokaryotes says
Coursera: Turn Down the Heat: Why a 4°C Warmer World Must be Avoided https://www.coursera.org/course/warmerworld
flxible says
The video of the rock fall is here
Don’t know why someone would want to live below crags like that, but I suppose it illustrates why folks shrug off climate change … never happened before.
wili says
http://climatestate.com/2013/05/14/collapse-of-complex-societies-by-joseph-tainter/ (thanks to prok)
Look at the bit from just about the hour mark. He points out multiple crises that are crashing around our heads in the next few years to decades, and points out that “solving these problems generates no new wealth.”
id est, capitalism will not solve any of these problems since there is no freakin’ profit in it.
wili says
Australia’s BOM is moving toward predictions of and El Nino later this year. This coincides with similar predictions at NOAA. Hansen has also said that he thinks that an El Nino is likely coming up.
How much stock should we put in such prognostications given past failures, the fact that this time of year is a particularly bad season for accurate predictions, and the fact that these are predictions for events many months out? At what point might we have more confidence in them?
Tony Weddle says
wili,
Interesting talk by Tainter. He said, in a roundabout way, that all societies must collapse eventually (because all societies have to maintain themselves by solving problems and solving problems increases complexity and increasing complexity eventually leads to collapse) but seemed reluctant to say that in the Q&A.
prokaryotes says
Snowden Docs: U.S. Spied on Negotiators At 2009 Climate Summit
prokaryotes says
Increasing complexity without regulations, eventually may lead to collapse.
At the beginning Tainter also points out how a lack of regulation contributed to the financial crisis.
wili says
Tony (@#632), I’m not sure about all societies. The San society in southern Africa, for example, has probably lived pretty much the way it is now (or was till a few years ago when it was disrupted by modernity) for thousand or even tens of thousands of years. He may say that most if not all _civilizations_ must collapse.
(But reCaptcha counters: never hummiS)
Kevin McKinney says
On the Larson et al study #621 et seq: I am a Bear Of Very Little Chemistry, but if I’ve got this right, the surprisingly rapid rate of soil production won’t increase acidification, because it’s already a step further on in the process.
That is, the calcium bicarbonate is the *product* of carbonic acid formed from atmospheric CO2, and as it ends up in the ocean, this happens:
http://www.columbia.edu/~vjd1/carbon.htm
(Note: calcium bicarbonate only exists as an ionic solution–a concept, by the way, that’s owed to Svante Arrhenius; that’s what he won his Nobel for, and boy, was *that* a scientific struggle! The bicarbonate ‘is’ the Ca++ + 2HCO3 in the precursor side of the reaction diagram. And, lest I sound wise on chemistry, let me say I know just barely enough to understand what I wrote, and no more. And a good chunk of it comes from Dr. Archer’s “The Long Thaw”–see link at bottom of post for those who haven’t already encountered it.)
So I’d conclude that the rapid soil formation rates are not increasing ocean acidification, but probably rather increasing the buffering capacity of seawater. Though no doubt this is very important for understanding the carbon cycle in the requisite detail. [Wild and perhaps unlikely speculation omitted here.]
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Long-Thaw-A-Review
Note: still having to use Firefox to post, as Safari is still mostly not presenting a Captcha box. So far, I haven’t heard that anyone else is having this problem–is that the case out there in Internetworld?
wili says
Tom, also note that at about the hour and 14 minute mark, in response to a question Tainter does point to one example of a major civilization intentionally and successfully simplifying in order to (at least in part) survive–the Byzantine Empire.
(Interesting, since the term ‘Byzantine’ has come to mean something like ‘inscrutably complex’!
(And again, reCaptcha quips: theoretical LACPeo)
DIOGENES says
Interesting perspective on the recent European Climate Targets from the NewScientist. Not only are the targets grossly inadequate for what is required, but it’s not clear how enforceable they are and whether they will be met.
“Latest European climate targets may never be met
17:24 22 January 2014 by Fred Pearce
Europe has proposed fresh targets for cutting its greenhouse gas emissions between now and 2030. But officials baulked at imposing national targets for investment in renewable energy, leaving it unclear how the overall targets will be reached.
Today’s white paper on climate and energy proposes that the 28 nations of the European Union (EU) should cut greenhouse gas emissions by 40 per cent by 2030, compared to 1990 levels. The EU has already nearly met its existing target of a 20 per cent cut by 2020.
The European Commission (EC) also suggests upping the current target for the share of energy obtained from renewable sources like wind and solar power. But this increase will only be from 20 per cent of the total in 2020 to 27 per cent in 2030. Moreover, INDIVIDUAL NATIONS WILL NOT BE COMMITTED TO THE TARGET, SO IT IS UNCLEAR HOW IT WILL BE ENFORCED.
Officials hope the targets will set a benchmark for United Nations negotiations on future emissions, which aim to conclude in Paris at the end of next year. But before that, THE TARGETS HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS. With growing concern about Europe’s high energy prices, that could be hard.
Kind of vague
EU climate commissioner Connie Hedegaard insisted the proposed targets were “ambitious”. She said the emissions target must be met with domestic actions alone, with no contribution from “offset projects” such as paying poor nations to plant and protect forests.
But environmental groups reacted with dismay, complaining that the targets were not tough enough. Europe “must agree to cut greenhouse gases by at least 55 per cent by 2030 if they wish to play a meaningful role in a new climate deal,” says Greenpeace UK’s director John Sauven. Climate Action Network, a coalition of non-governmental organisations, called for a target of 45 per cent of energy coming from renewable sources.
EU officials also disappointed many environmentalists by backing out of planned tough controls on shale gas. Instead, companies wanting to extract gas by fracking will only need to meet basic local environment and safety standards. The EU also postponed new targets for improving energy efficiency.
In December, Kevin Anderson of the University of Manchester, UK, fired off a letter to the EC. He complained that the targets were being developed “IN A VACUUM OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE” that overestimated our chances of keeping global warming below 2 °C. Anderson called for 80 PER CENT CUTS IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS BY 2030.
Chaos in Europe
European energy policy is in disarray because of concern that high prices are choking off economic recovery. As a result, COUNTRIES WOULD NOT ACCEPT NATIONAL TARGETS FOR RENEWABLES. Countries like Poland are keen to stick with burning domestic coal. Others, most notably the UK, want to follow the US path: exploiting what they hope will be cheap shale gas reserves. The UK also wants a nuclear option.
In Germany, Europe’s largest economy, CO2 EMISSIONS HAVE BEGUN RISING AGAIN: coal burning hit a record high last year, nuclear power plants are shut and expansion of renewables has stalled at 17 per cent. Last week, its energy minister announced plans to CUT SUBSIDIES FOR RENEWABLES BY A THIRD.
European leaders insist they won’t give up their role as world leaders in cutting greenhouse gas emissions. But with NO NATIONAL TARGETS FOR RENEWABLES OR IMPROVED ENERGY EFFICIENCY, it is increasingly unclear how they will achieve their aims.”
Hank Roberts says
the surprisingly rapid rate of soil production won’t increase acidification
Yep, conflated sulfate with carbonate, then got the carbonate reaction path backwards, as I read it. Someone is wrong on the Internet again.
prokaryotes says
Enhanced chemical weathering as a sink for carbon dioxide, a nutrient source and a strategy to mitigate ocean acidification
wheelsoc says
Here’s a question relating to dendroclimatology.
Somebody described the field as “a mess” and brought up the idea of CO2 fertilization specifically. The general claim is that we don’t know how big of an effect it is and can’t account for it if we can’t quantify it. The conclusion seems to be that all previous dendro-based reconstructions of temperature have a bias which makes the past look colder since CO2 concentrations were lower, hence slower-growing trees than in recent times.
I’ve been trying to find out whether this is the case, but I can’t read any paywalled articles, so I can’t access much.
1) I know CO2 fertilization has been proposed in the literature as a confounding factor when interpreting some records. What’s the current prevailing opinion on its significance? How good are we at taking into account?
2) I know sampling sites are chosen to try and limit the number of confounding factors, i.e. studies about precipitation look for trees stressed mostly by water availability. How is the potential fertilization from atmospheric CO2 concentrations controlled for when selecting sites for tree rings that are used as proxies for temperature?
3) Some recent research indicates that enhanced CO2 availability increase the efficiency of water use by trees, because it’s easier to pull sufficient amounts of the gas from the atmosphere without having to leave their stomata open and let water escape. That seems to be subtly different from a direct “CO2 fetilization” effect, where carbon dioxide is simply the limiting factor to growth because there’s not enough of it. Not the same issue? Different implications for interpreting dendro data?
4) What else should I know about this, and where can I look?
Thanks in advance.
prokaryotes says
The answer is not that easy, rad here on page 228 and before about all the factors which can determine ocean ph.
Is Ocean Acidification an Open-Ocean Syndrome? Understanding Anthropogenic Impacts on Seawater pH
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-013-9594-3#page-1
prokaryotes says
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-013-9594-3/fulltext.html
prokaryotes says
+
prokaryotes says
The chemical weathering of rocks (limestone) might help to counter some effects of OA but what above study didn’t mentioned is that more weathering also means more erosion (see Fig 2 from another study “Quantifying the degradation of organic matter in marine sediments: A review and synthesis”), hence uptake of organic matter flux.
Hank Roberts says
>> the extra carbon ends up in the Ocean and waterways,
>> so this suggest it may accelerate ocean acidification
>> and various other things like infrastructure damage
>> from acid rain
https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2014/01/unforced-variations-jan-2014/comment-page-13/#comment-453575
> bicarbonate, increasing the alkalinity and pH
> … the increase in alkalinity would partially
> counteract “ocean acidification”
Thanks for posting a good cite that gets the chemistry right.
Tony Weddle says
wili,
From my admittedly brief research, I’m not sure the San can be called a society as it seems they exist(ed) in small independent groups of only a dozen or so, occasionally getting together for “social” occasions. But maybe it’s a pointer to the kind of “society” we can look forward to. Existing for 20,000 years would be an achievement.
prokaryotes says
Reality
Australia Permits Dredge Dumping Near Great Barrier Reef for Major Coal Port
DIOGENES says
PK #648,
With the Abbott government, did you expect different?
wili says
TW at #647 wrote: “…I’m not sure the San can be called a society…” ???
What definition of ‘society’ are you using here? It’s not one I am familiar with. Google “hunter-gatherer societies” and you will get many scholarly and semi-scholarly references. Is there some sociological definition of society that excludes small scale groups that I am unaware of?
“…it’s a pointer to the kind of “society” we can look forward to.” Indeed.